Talk:Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad
The Wookieepedia article was really a mess. I did some heavy editing on this one and rearranged a few paragraphs so it would make more sense. --Halomek 06:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC) Tossing Vaapad out the window I propose we change this to Form VII: Juyo. The reason is because Vaapad should have been lost when Mace died in Episode III, since he was the only Jedi to ever master this technique. Other Jedi whom practiced this technique, all fell to the Dark Side, and if any were redeemed, they died during Order 66 and/or the resulting Purge. --Cadden Blackthorne 23:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC) I'm for it if you need another opinion or just want some reassurance not everyone will be mad at you. Makes sense to me. Topgun220 I'm in 150% Agreement with Cadden Halcyon508 I totally agree. Beorht I have to nix this as Tulsar does know Vaapad, or at least a version of it. He recreated it for his own purposes and I'd say is one of the few that would have the means and the skills to do so. I suppose I need to go into more detail on it in the article since it seems that knowing Vaapad rubs some people the wrong way. I might also add that Exodus is hardly a canon universe no matter how you look at it. I'm all for separating Juyo users from Vaapad users though. --Halomek 02:33, 11 October 2006 (UTC) *Only problem, Halo, is that we are a canon universe. Everything up to the end of RotJ. Afterwards, canon is mostly thrown out the window. Save for minor things, such as Leia being leader of the NR, and the Jedi Academy on Yavin IV. (Is that supposed to still be around? Last I heard was before Yavin was Imp territory.) Either way, if it's a "version" of Vaapad, it really isn't Vaapad. Cadden has a "version" of Form VI, but his fighting style is, in no way, shape or form, Form VI. --Cadden Blackthorne 05:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC) **I should also point out that Vaapad is a variation of Juyo.... --Cadden Blackthorne 05:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC) *I've got more to say on this, and on variations in particular, but I'm tired, so this little blurb here will be a placeholder until I get to it tomorrow. --Halomek 07:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC) Well, since Juyo is an incomplete form, wouldn't it make sense that any disciplined, effective use of it would be a variation? That's something that's gotta be taken into account... *Not necessarily. Juyo may be combined with practically anything, it seems. Darth Maul was a master of Juyo, Jar'Kai, and Teräs Käsi. Also to note, Palpatine combined Juyo with Ataru. Just because it was considered incomplete, doesn't mean that it was incomplete, I imagine. Also, upon reading further, Wookieepedia states there were only two masters of Vaapad in Star Wars history (as Mace was the creator of Vaapad, that would not be for that long) - Mace and Depa. Depa, who fell to the Dark Side. Sora helped Mace create it, but Sora fell to the Dark Side, as well... and, well, died. ;) Quinlan was taught by Sora in but a few of the basics. But, because Sora died at the end of the Clone Wars, any knowledge would have been lost along with Mace and Depa. And there's no way Quinlan would know anything more than to instruct the basic foundations of it, or a few points. What he was taught is likely unknown, but it is for certain that he would hold no knowledge sufficient to hand it down. It is safe to say that Vaapad died at the end of the Clone Wars. It's the only form (variation), for sure, that would have. --Cadden Blackthorne 16:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC) Tulsar Instead of retyping the same thing over and over again, I'm just going to repaste what I wrote in Tulsar's talk page. If you have any other questions, by all means check out his talk page for yourselves... I’m well aware that only about three people knew Vaapad before the Purge and that if there was any style to be lost afterwards, it would have been that. Please keep in mind that Tulsar was roughly twenty when the Purge happened and would have been well aware of Mace Windu’s distinctive style before that (especially since he was so immersed in lightsaber combat), just not the mechanics of it. ''He never sought out Mace Windu to learn Vaapad though as it was used to channel one’s inner-darkness. Before the Purge, Tulsar had no such inner-darkness to worry about, so he settled on learning Juyo instead. However, once his family was murdered years later, it became a priority for him to understand the ways of Vaapad so he could deal with the dark emotions that the loss of his wife and son brought him. You’ll notice that even 18 years after the deed, the memories still haunt him. In that time he pieced together Vaapad from the information he had gathered before the Purge as well as other sources and his own understanding of the lightsaber and it’s connection with a Jedi. Couple that with his profound loss and you get probably the only character on Exodus who has any true claim to knowing Vaapad. Learning Vaapad in turn helped him develop Kejusu (knowing Niman also helped), which is his answer to being able to compete with Forcers who have developed enormous power in the Force. It’s the same difference, only on different sides of the coin. It may not be “true” Vaapad since Tulsar never learned it directly from Windu, but the concept and the abilities are essentially the same. The differences in Tulsar’s variation are so minor that it would be completely ridiculous to call it something else. I can add all of this to the Vaapad entry so people know that Tulsar didn't magically conjure Vaapad out of thin air and that we are still adhering to canon. My suggestion is to separate Juyo from Vaapad so it helps to cut down on people being so up in arms about characters using this form. We could even make Form VII exclusively Juyo and then make a new entry for Vaapad (calling it something like Form VII-A). --Halomek 06:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC) Restructured Okay, I redid the entry and separated Juyo from Vaapad (including the users). I also included info on why Tulsar would know Vaapad. I'd say that if anyone else has a character that knows Vaapad and wasn't taught by Tulsar, they should add in how they learned it. Does this work for everyone? --Halomek 03:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC) Suggestion Might I recommend that Tulsar's style of Vaapad be given its own unique name, much like Windu's Vaapad was given its name, Vaapad, in lieu of being called Juyo? It seems to me that it's basically the same situation, i.e. Juyo was a complete form, it was lost, Mace Windu recreated it the best that he could, but it was still not the exact same, and it was given the name Vaapad. Likewise, Vaapad was lost, and Tulsar recreated it the best he could, but it was still not the exact same, so perhaps naming it something else would be beneficial to distinguish between the two. [[User:Barringer|'Barringer']] 05:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC) *Tulsar's style of Vaapad may not be the exact same as Mace's, but it still functions the same, so I don't think calling it something else wouldn't make much sense. Also, apparently a juyo and a vaapad, the animals the styles were named after, are one and the same according to canon (a retcon, but there you have it). --Halomek 22:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)